After the collapse of the western Roman Empire in the 400s, most of the conquered European peoples retained the version of the Middle Eastern religion, Christianity, that the Romans had imposed upon them. They called it Roman Catholicism. Following the Renaissance and with the printing press making religious books more accessible, a questioning of this 1500 year old version of the religion began throughout parts of Western Europe.
We have read about reformers like Martin Luther & John Calvin who challenged the Roman Catholic version of Christianity. Look over your readings and answer the following question in the "comments" section. As is our practice, reply to two of your classmates with a statement or a clarifying question.
Does Martin Luther or John Calvin have a more significant impact?
- Use Key terms from our readings to both briefly describe and then defend your response.
- All responses are valid as long as we support our response with evidence from the readings.
- Look back at our "Rules" for answering questions completely from our classwork on 9/21.
Both Martin Luther and John Calvin contributed a sizable amount to the Protestant Reformation, but one was undeniably more influential than the other. Martin Luther had a more significant impact on the Reformation movement than Calvin. One piece of evidence of this can be found in the textbook, where it states: "The French theologian John Calvin was, after
ReplyDeleteLuther, the most influential reformer" It flat out says that Calvin came before Luther in terms of their influence on the reformation movement. Another piece of evidence comes in the form of the quote: "Martin Luther openly challenged
some of the basic practices and beliefs of the Roman Catholic
Church—until then, the supreme religious authority and also
one of the strongest political authorities throughout western
Europe." This quote shows that Luther singlehandedly jumpstarted the reformation movement, and that he was the first person to convince others that the church was corrupt. Since he was the first reformation leader, it is clear that he would be the most influential reformation leader as a result, because without him all of his followers and like minded thinkers wouldn't have thought to challenge the church.
I completely agree with this Max.
DeleteI agree with you because he did start the protestant reformation and that was very important for people like John Calvin to have a following.
DeleteI agree, and that quote was the perfect piece of evidence to back up your claim.
DeleteI agree and I like that you included that even the text states that Luther was more influential, but also going on to explain WHY he was more influential, rather than just because the text says so.
DeleteI think that John Calvin had more of an impact on the Protestant Reformation, and I think that because although Martin Luther was the one who started to challenge the Roman Catholic Church, John Calvin really gave it a lot more fuel. His idea of predestination, that nothing in their life was going to determine how their future will be, only God will do so before. Anything a person does will let them know what their chances of salvation are, but it can't be changed. The way someone lead their life would show what they were, not being able to alter it, so if someone leads a useless life without any purpose, it means that God chose them to go into damnation. This is different from what the Roman Catholic Church was at the time, not following the institutions to lead their fate, but to just stick with what you were elected by God himself.
ReplyDeleteI agree, especially with you saying that John Calvin gave it more fuel. That is more important to a movement than the person who starts it because it is hard to drum up support and keep something going.
DeleteI like the idea that Luther started the idea and then Calvin was the one to back it up and continue it further.
DeleteI agree. Even though Luther started it, Calvin really helped it spread.
DeleteI think that John Calvin had a more influential impact than Martin Luther. The textbook states that John Calvin "went even further than Luther had in rejecting the Catholic belief that human institutions could affect an individual’s prospects for salvation." He went farther, and the result of that was a following of people who had productive lives. Martin Luther may have started the movement, but in the end it was John Calvin who took it the farthest and made "The new creed spread rapidly throughout northern Europe."
ReplyDeleteAlthough you bring up some interesting points I disagree. Martin Luther was the first question to the power of the Roman church. His beliefs and disruption of the ruling power began the many different splits in Christianity. Although John Calvin greatly extended the beliefs of Martin Luther, Luther was the reason for Calvinism and many other secs, having a greater impact on Europe as a whole.
DeleteI agree that Calvin had a bigger impact since he had gone farther than Luther in rejecting the ways of the Catholic Church
DeleteI agree that Calvin did improve on Luther in the area of rejecting donations and loyalty as a way to enter heaven, but that was only one area of debate in the whole reformation movement. Luther was more prominent than Calvin in practically every other aspect of the movement, so he would be more influential.
DeleteI guess the question I had to ask myself was whether or not the impact they actually made was more important than if they were able to make it in the first place (does that make sense?). For me, it was the latter. The very fact John Calvin couldn't have accomplished what he did without Martin Luther was what decided it for me. But I still agree with what you said, I just had a slightly different approach.
DeleteMartin Luther had a more significant impact than John Calvin on the history of the world and christianity. Martin Luther challenged the Roman Catholic Church, the only church in Medieval Europe, by questioning its' basic principles, ie the church hierarchy and loyalty to Roman Catholicism. Because of Martin Luther translating the Bible into German (from Latin) people were able to have personal relationship with God and allowed individuals to come with different conclusions about the world from the text; which led to the emergence of many different secs. Martin Luther created a schism in European Christianity that lives up to today. Because of Martin Luther, hundreds of different secs of christianity formed, permanently changing the lives of all Europeans. John Calvin exists as a one of the many, but important, secs that came from Luther's reformation. Calvinism is important sec of Christianity. Calvin created the extremely influential ideology of predestination (the idea that salvation is predetermined by God), a perspective that changed the future of generations of Europeans. But his doctrine is rooted in his Luther's revolt.
ReplyDeleteMartin Luther took the first step, but John Calvin took it farther. I guess it really comes down to what is more important, starting something or building off it.
DeleteI think that even though Luther was the one to have started it all, Calvin was the one who went further since he introduced the doctrine of predestination.
DeleteI agree with you that John Calvin has a following Calvinism but I don't think that is as important as the starting of Protestants who Calvinism is a sect of.
DeleteI completely agree, I believe that the schism that Luther created was largely responsible for the rest of the reformation movement, so he would be more influential than Calvin.
DeleteI disagree that Luther had the bigger impact, but your points are very convincing. I think that while Luther is responsible for the start of the movement, Calvin really influenced its spread, which is arguably more important. I guess it could be perceived however, that the first step is always the hardest.
DeleteJohn Calvin had a more significant impact than Martin Luther. John Calvin was "the most influential reformer and went even further
ReplyDeletethan Luther had in rejecting the Catholic belief." He was the one to introduce the doctrine of predestination and because of this, his followers would have productive lives (or attempt to have.) Even though Martin Luther was the one who started to challenge the religious practices of the Roman Catholic Church, Calvin took it farther than him and this faith spread rapidly.
I agree with this, Martin Luther did start this shift from the Roman Catholic Church, but John Calvin really carried it throughout Europe, and did all the spread of this Reformation. This doesn't mean I discredit Martin Luther, it's just that John Calvin was more influential.
DeleteI agree, he was able to change the religion but splitting it up into different secs.
DeleteI agree! I think what Simon said is very accurate, he really carried the movement and brought the change that has shaped so much of our modern world.
DeleteThe quote you used is cherrypicked. The full sentence is "The French theologian John Calvin was, after Luther, the most influential reformer and went even further..." I agree that Calvin did more than Luther but I'd say that Luther's initial actions enabled Calvin, which makes him more impactful.
DeleteYou make good points, but I disagree, Clavin does do more, but only after Luther starts the whole thing, which, in my opinion, makes him more impactful.
DeleteI agree with this. Martin Luther may have started it, but Calvin helped spread it.
DeleteI agree, John Calvin had continued to push the idea, allowing more people to join. Martin Luther should not be credited as much as the most significant thing he did was start the idea.
DeleteI believe that Martin Luther had more of an impact than John Calvin on Christianity because he first of all came before John Calvin. Also even though John Calvin may have been the more radical of the two, his following was much smaller than Martin Luther's. He was also the first one to challenge the church and questioned some of his basic principles. I think if there had been no Martin Luther there would have been no John Calvin. John Calvin may have introduced radical ideas like predestination but his ideas wouldn't've had a following if it was not for Martin Luther.
ReplyDeleteI agree that without Martin Luther's actions Calvinism most likely wouldn't have existed and certainly wouldn't have had as much impact.
DeleteMartin Luther was the more influential figure for Christianity than John Calvin because Martin Luther was able to shape Christianity in ways that are still significant. For starters, Luther challenged the Roman Church which was the only Church in Europe during the Medieval era. "Martin Luther openly challenged
ReplyDeletesome of the basic practices and beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church—until then, the supreme religious authority and also one of the strongest political authorities throughout western Europe." He started to question the Roman ideologies and sparked a new era of change for Christianity. Due to his doubt for the Roman practices, many more secs of Christianity were created, permanatly changing the religion to this day. So, Martin Luther had the greater impact on Christianity.
I agree with your statement that Martin Luther was revolutionary in this way.
DeleteAlthough they both contributed to the European Reformation, Martin Luther had the larger overall impact. He was the one who began the entire reformation, which is undoubtedly one of the largest roles a person can play in any movement. He openly challenged the Roman Catholic Church and presented new ideas, an entirely unprecedented act. John Calvin would likely never have had any influential role at all if Luther had not paved the way. His slight inferiority is even blatantly stated in the textbook when it says "John Calvin was, after Luther, the most influential reformer," with 'after Luther' being the most important phrase in the quote. It cannot be denied that John Calvin was an important figure, but in the grand scheme of things, he was secondary to Martin Luther.
ReplyDeleteI also thought that his starting of the Reformation was super meaningful and showed his impact was greater.
DeleteI agree with you where Calvin wouldn't have had a role if it wasn't for luther.
DeleteIn terms of influence and impact, it can be deduced that John Calvin Had a bigger impact in terms of reforming the Church than Martin Luther. For example, it states "The French theologian John Calvin was, after Luther, the most infl uential reformer and went even further than Luther had in rejecting the Catholic belief that human institutions could affect an individual’s prospects for salvation." It is evident how John Calvin was an important influencer but also went above and beyond in terms of rejecting Catholic Beliefs.
ReplyDeleteOf the two religious influencers, Martin Luther was the more influential one, with the text even stating that Calvin was second only to him. Luther openly challenged the church, and while Calvin took it further than Luther did, Luther was still the one who started the entire movemnent.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with this, John Calvin was still really influential in the Protestant Reformation, spreading his ideas to much of Northern Europe. However, who knows what would've actually happened if Martin Luther didn't stand up, so maybe John Calvin wouldn't be able to have all his followers.
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ReplyDeleteJohn Calvin had an impact exponentially greater than Martin Luther's. John Calvin was "the most influential reformer and went even further than Luther had in rejecting the Catholic belief." Essentially, while Luther started the shift from Roman Catholicism, Calvin really transformed the movement, and carried the spread of reformation. While Luther deserves credit for his part, Calvin was undeniably the greater influence.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with this, while John Calvin may have been important in continuing the movement, the movement was initiated by Martin Luther. Even if John Calvin kept the movement popular after the death of Martin Luther, it's not like the movement would have died out. The text states that it was a schism that could not be healed.
DeleteI believe that Martin Luther was the more impactful leader of the two. It was his actions that initiated the protestant split, and the schism of the church has had a massive impact throughout history all the way through to today. His actions eventually influenced the creation of the Church of England, led by King Henry VIII. His opposition to the Pope and to the institution of Christianity influenced millions of people to focus more on spirituality instead of people on earth. John Calvin's actions were impactful but, to quote the book, "The French theologian John Calvin was, after Luther, the most influential reformer"
ReplyDeleteI agree, his starting the entire movement definitely makes him more impactful.
DeleteI thought that quote was really important as well!
DeleteI agree that Luther's ideas were the ones who initiated the split.
DeleteI agree that Martin Luther was more important for initiating the split because without him John Calvin may never have been influenced to continue the movement.
DeleteMartin Luther and John Calvin both had a huge impact on the Protestant Reformation, but ultimately, Martin Luther had the bigger impact. While John Calvin was an important figure in the Protestant Reformation, he did not create it. The textbook says "The Protestant Reformation began in Germany in 1517 when Martin Luther openly challenged some of the basic practices and beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church." Martin Luther was the founder of the movement. even the textbook says "John Calvin was, after Luther, the most influential reformer". Though Calvin was more important than Luther in the development of predestination, that was only a smaller part of the whole, and in the whole, Luther was more important.
ReplyDeleteI agree that being the founder of the movement puts Luther as more influential than Calvin.
DeleteI agree because Calvin furthered his ideas but didn't necessarily create new ones.
DeleteAlthough I disagree, it is true that Calvin's influence and teachings would not exist without Luther's founding of the reformation.
DeleteIn my opinion, John Calvin had the larger impact. Even though he came after Martin Luther, he did more than Luther did. He introduced the doctrine of predestination and helped spread reformation. Although Luther did have an impact, I believed that Calvin had more of an impact.
ReplyDeleteI agree, what John Calvin did can even outweigh the fact that Martin Luther was the origins of these ideas.
DeleteI agree that he did more, but John Calvin couldn't have accomplished without the work of Martin Luther. Because of that, I lean more towards the case for Martin Luther.
DeleteMartin Luther and John Calvin were both influential people in the Protestant Reformation. I believe that Martin Luther had a larger impact because he was the one who started and shared his idea originally. It states in the text "Martin Luther openly challenged
ReplyDeletesome of the basic practices and beliefs of the Roman Catholic
Church—until then, the supreme religious authority and also
one of the strongest political authorities throughout western
Europe." This shows that Martin Luther shared his opinion on the religion and he was the one who started the division and made a change. Calvin presented his thoughts and his ideas as a response to Martin's. I feel like he would have had a larger impact if he stated his opinion to come after Martin.
I also agree that Luther sharing his ideas first was more influential than Calvin.
DeleteMartin Luther had the bigger impact because he introduced new ideas that would be more common today. "He denied the Church’s claim that God communicated to the world through the pope and the clergy. The Bible, not the church, was the authentic voice of God, Luther claimed, and salvation was to be found not through “works” or through the formal practice of religion, but through faith alone." Luther gained a big following rapidly and began to reform the church. Calvin only had one idea that sticks today which is to live a virtuous life. Even his followers were anxious at one point. Overall Martin Luther was more influential, he had more ideas that stuck today, and began the first reformation of the church.
ReplyDeleteMartin Luther had a bigger influence as he is known to have led his followers away from the Roman Catholic church but he is also known to have created "a schism" within European Christianity that was never healed. He had a bigger influence because he was the person who started started the idea to reform the church and John Calvin only furthered his ideas but ultimately Martin Luther had a bigger influence.
ReplyDeleteI like the point and the quote you used where luther started "a schism" that was never healed to see the substantial effect he made.
DeleteAlthough we know that each of them had an extreme influence, I can say that John Calvin had a larger impact on the separation from the Catholic church. Martin Luther deserves all credit and acknowledgment for starting the idea of separating, but the Calvin continued it further. Without him, the idea that the Catholic church was not one to follow would have died out. Apart from my own writing, the textbook itself even states that John Calvin "went even further than Luther had in rejecting the Catholic belief." This further solidifies my point that although Martin Luther had started this idea, most of the credit should be given to Calvin.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on how John Calvin had the larger impact on the separation from the Catholic Church and how you acknowledged the other side.
DeleteAlthough Martin Luther was the one to start the Protestant Reformation, John Calvin made a more significant impact with his expansion and take on Luther's ideas. Calvin went even further than Luther in rejecting the Catholic belief both focused on, also introducing the doctrine of predestination. Calvinism "produced a strong incentive to lead virtuous, productive lives." Even though Calvin's teachings could not have existed without Luther, he was able to accomplish and influence more.
ReplyDeleteI agree, Calvins push against Roman Catholicism along with his additional theories put forward were what truly set him apart as the primary man of the movement.
DeleteWhile John Calvin certainly furthered the opposition to Roman Catholicism, Martin Luther was the one who really created the movement to reform it. Martin Luther created a "schism within European Christianity...that was never to be healed." Additionally, the textbook even states that next to Martin Luther John Calvin was the most influential to the European Reformation. The use of the word next demonstrates that even though John Calvin was certainly important, Martin Luther is considered to be more influential.
ReplyDeleteThese two figures, John Calvin and Martin Luther, were both incredibly prominent in the movement against the Roman Catholic Church. However, Martin Luther was more influential. He created the rise the movement, he was responsible for the schism in Christianity. From that, the way for people like John Calvin was paved. However, because Martin Luther ultimately founded it, he was more influential.
ReplyDeleteWhile I'm not sure I completely agree with you, I see this as an interesting point. The debate whether the originator, Luther, was more important simply because he allowed Calvin to do what he did is a difficult and thought-provoking question.
DeleteI just realized that both of our responses are very similar—I completely agree with all of your points. The reason why John Calvin was able to reach new heights and go further in his belief than Martin Luther was because Luther had already started the Reformation.
DeleteAs many here have already stated, I believe Martin Luther began a historical movement but John Calvin carried it farther, thus making him a more influential and impactful figure in the rejection of Roman Catholicism. Although Luther had some otherworldly confidence and scintillating bravery to challenge arguably the most powerful institution in Europe, Calvin built off of Luthers idea to a great extent. Calvin thought of new principles and ideas of how life and death truly worked, and according to the text was "the most influential reformer and went even further than Luther".
ReplyDeleteI agree and I like the fact that you acknowledged the guts it took for Luther to challenge the most powerful institution of Europe, and how the building of ideas had a much greater impact then the starting of them.
DeleteBetween Martin Luther and John Calvin, I would say John Calvin has had the more significant impact as a reformer as he “ after Luther, [is] the most influential reformer and went even further than Luther had in rejecting the Catholic belief that human institutions could affect an individual’s prospects for salvation.” Meaning John Calvin would go beyond Luther in terms of spreading the ideas and without Calvin these ideas wouldn’t have been able to “spread rapidly throughout northern Europe and produced (among other groups) the Huguenots in France and the Puritans in England.” I believe this supports the idea of John Calvin having the more significant impact as without the spreading of ideas, those ideas would not have been able to take hold and we wouldn’t have the world we do now, though Luther was the one to begin this movement, Calvin was the one to take it to another level
ReplyDeleteMartin Luther had a more significant impact than John Calvin. While it is true that John Calvin went further in his beliefs than Luther, Luther was the spark that ignited the flame of the Protestant Reformation. Luther challenged the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church and created a permanent cultural and religious divide that changed the course of the world and paved the way for John Calvin.
ReplyDelete